Pinckneyville Correctional Center was on level 1 lockdown Tuesday after an inmate fight, according to Illinois Department of Corrections spokeswoman Stacy Solano.

No serious injuries were reported.

“The department is investigating this incident as the safety and security of staff and inmates remains the top priority,” Solano said in an email.

Eddie Caumiant, Southern Illinois regional director for AFSCME said he believes the incident took place Tuesday morning in the prison yard. He said many of the inmates involved were said to be from security threat groups with gang connections.

Caumiant said the fight is a sign of ever-growing problems involving to many inmates and not enough space and staff in Illinois prisons. He said the union hopes the DOC takes the matter seriously and pays attention to the union’s call for more well-equipped facilities.

 

codell.rodriguez@thesouthern.com

618-351-5804

(65) comments

MickeeD
MickeeD

I hate to be a gadfly here but I've counted over 40 (lost count) comments, which have absolutely nothing to do with Pickneyville, or prison, or anything else other than a back and forth regarding religion. Give it a rest, people or at least wait until another news story pops up regarding religion, or Christianity, or atheism. And quit with the sniping calling people off about being off topic. You all come across like a bunch of hypocrites or a whiny brat when you do.

bluegill

@mckd - fine with me but if I'm being challenged, I'm probably going to respond. What's "calling people off" anyway?

MickeeD
MickeeD

Heh. I like you. meant "out." lol

MickeeD
MickeeD

Well, I for one am glad no one at the Pinckneyville facility was seriously injured during that altercation. I just can't help place a lot of the blame on this and other issues concerning our prison system clearly on Quinn's shoulders.

CLG4
CLG4

Some answers for Ishmeal. Thirty Years' War - The standard presentation of it as a religious struggle is seductively misleading. Closer inspection reveals that the combatants do not divide neatly along religious lines. Not only did Catholic France back Protestant Sweden financially from 1631 and militarily from 1635, but Saxony and many Lutheran princes supported the Catholic Habsburg emperor for most of the conflict. This was about land and power. - - -French Wars of Religion - The French monarchy became weak after the death of King Henry II in 1559. Some powerful French noble families, who were ambitious, wanted to take advantage of this situation to gain more power. - - - Nigerian Civil War - The Nigerian Civil War, also known as the Nigerian-Biafran War, 6 July 1967 – 15 January 1970, was a political conflict caused by the attempted secession of the southeastern provinces of Nigeria as the self-proclaimed Republic of Biafra. The conflict was the result of economic, ethnic, cultural and religious tensions among the various peoples of Nigeria. according to Ishmael no other reason counted, just religion. - - -The Second Sudanese Civil War was a conflict from 1983 to 2005 between the central Sudanese government and the Sudan People‘s Liberation Army. Scholars such as Douglas Johnson have pointed at exploitative governance as the root cause. - - -Crusades - Were fought for land not religious dominance Ultimately the Europeans lost and the land remained with the Arabs and Jews.
- - - - Shall I go on and on, what part of people seeking power don’t you understand. NOW I still say that Bluegill has no IDEA of what he speaks about .The goal of the abolitionist movement was the immediate emancipation of all slaves and the end of racial discrimination and segregation. Radical abolitionism was partly fueled by the religious fervor of the Second Great Awakening, which prompted many people to advocate for emancipation on religious grounds ( now was that moral feelings or beliefs). The goal of the Civil Rights Movement was a worldwide movement for equality before the LAW occurring between approximately 1950 and 1980. In many situations it took the form of campaigns of civil resistance aimed at achieving change by nonviolent resistance. In some situations it was accompanied, or followed, by civil unrest and armed rebellion. The process was long and tenuous in many countries, and many of these movements did not fully achieve their goals although, the efforts of these movements did lead to improvements in the legal rights of previously oppressed groups of people. In your world they must have burned bibles to attain this goal.

DeeJay

Thank you!

Ishmael
Ishmael

CLG4, you only addressed 5 of the 15 wars I quoted and even unsuccessfully failed to completely refute one of them as a religious war when you posted, "... and religious tensions among the various peoples of Nigeria." While 4.5 out of 15 will elicit a hardy "Thank You!" from DeeJay I think you need to re-think your argument.

Remember, your original statement was, "... no war has ever been fought cause of religion." By only refuting a few (and not all) of my examples you just dis-proved your own original statement.

... and by the way, making straw man statements like, "In your world they must have burned bibles to attain this goal" only shows you have run out of intelligent arguments to make and are becoming desperate.

DeeJay

I believe CLG4's point is that religion as the sole cause of various wars is simply untrue. Anyone who claims such has an agenda. Like any set of circumstances, the causes of war are quite complex and to point to any one factor and say "That's the reason for the war" is simplistic and misleading.

Ishmael
Ishmael

"Anyone who claims such has an agenda." - DeeJay

You can always tell when someone runs out of facts and rational arguments and has become desperate; they start attacking their opponents motives.

Feel free to have the last word.

bluegill

@DJ - "religion as the sole cause of various wars is simply untrue" - Onward Christian Soldiers. And yes DJ, I do have an agenda: stamp out willful ignorance, maintain the separation of church and state, tax the churches, and, if all goes well, see organized religion dismantled. The crumbling of the catholic church has been a wonderful starting point!!

DeeJay

Well, you and I are on the same page about the separation of church and state. As for the rest of your agenda, the First Amendment prevents you from advancing.

DeeJay

Some random thoughts on the religious education of children: How do you speak to a child about God? Very simply and very kindly.

Why should you speak to a child about God? Because the "God question" is inevitable. It is the question about meaning in life. Children are quick to push through to ultimates. Their persistent "whys" bother us. This is because often we do not know the answers to their questions. For Christians, a child's ultimate questions are also troublesome because we don't know how to express our inherited theological vocabulary in terms a child can understand.

One unsatisfactory was to do the religious education of children is to postpone their religious training until they are old enough to understand theological abstractions. This approach is unsatisfactory because children's patterns of leaning and the stages at which they learn are interwoven in such a way that children use their earliest learning experiences as models for later learning experiences. Resources for answering the questions of meaning and value should not be put off until late in the child's development.

While delaying religious education is perilous, so is forcing a child to express and acknowledge religious concepts which are meaningless either in his experience or comprehension, Memorization is most easily done in early childhood. But mere memorization without relationship is not the best form of education-religious or otherwise. Children can learn theological vocabulary, especially if they are raised in a Christian environment. But the words should be accompanied with Christlike acts and attitude. Childhood is a time of storing up mental skills for the rest of life. But religious education can place too much emphasis on what is memorized and not give enough attention to explaining and applying it.

The old saying is true: Christianity is more "caught" than taught.

bluegill

@DJ - " the question about meaning in life" - and the only correct and honest answer is "we do not know". - Also, you say "delaying religious education is perilous" - it's only perilous for the perpetuation of the myth. The stories are so bizarre that no adult, being told them for the first time, would believe them; it's only kids that are susceptible to absolute belief in such nonsense. You also say "Christianity is more "caught" than taught" - which is true. The mental immune system of a child is underdeveloped and unable to ward off all the lies that religious indoctrination infects them with.

DeeJay

"religious indoctrination.."

Is the presentation of a one-sided argument indoctrination? I contend that it is.

If the Judeo-Christian worldview is so fraught with error, why does it persist? Why must you put forth stereotypes, one-sided arguments, and mockery to support your postion? Why must you strive to tear down what others believe instead of building up what you believe?

bluegill

@DJ - "Why must you strive to tear down what others believe instead of building up what you believe?" - Belief should be based on evidence and facts; religion isn't. Why do you "believe" DJ? Certainly not because you've studied the facts and evidence and came to a logical conclusion. The truth is that you cannot articulate why you believe.

Ishmael
Ishmael

"Is the presentation of a one-sided argument indoctrination? I contend that it is." - DeeJay

You are also only presenting a one sided case. Railing against something while at the same time doing the very same is the height of hypocrisy.

DeeJay

bluegill: "Why do you "believe" DJ?" Because at the heart of my being (i.e. my soul) there was a "God-shaped vacuum" (Pascal) that demanded to be filled (vacuums MUST be filled). I examined the facts and evidence for Christianity (and a great deal exists) and found it compelling. When I came to the end of what reasoning can do, I took a leap of faith and believed that Jesus Christ could fill the "God-shaped vacuum" in my soul. I have found my faith to be well-founded. Christ has provided me with the foundation for a full, meaningful, happy life.

"The truth is that you cannot articulate why you believe." Untrue. If, by your statement, you mean a point by point refutation of your claims of what the Bible says, I could but I choose not to. If anyone is interested in such nonsense just Google the old clips of Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Bob Harrington debating on the Phil Donahue Show. Such exercises major on trivial things and are a waste of time.

Since you have said that I cannot articulate my beliefs, fair is fair, I'll say the same about you. So I ask again-What and why do you believe? We already know what you DON'T believe. What DO you believe, and why? And what has your belief system done to provide meaning in your life?

I'm not asking in order to win a point, or convince you of anything. I just want to know more about your worldview. I'll ask questions. I'll point out inconsistencies and challenge assumptions. But I won't mock you. Good ideas and philosophies don't require mocking a different way of thinking. A worthwhile worldview can stand on its own merit.

bluegill

@DJ - Sorry, but your explanation of why you believe is meaningless: It's inadequate. You can't have the sentence "When I came to the end of what reasoning can do, I took a leap of faith" in an intelligent explanation. You mention your "soul". There is no evidence for a "soul" DJ and what is a "god shaped vacuum"? That's just silly. The "facts and evidence for christianity" you mention surprisingly have never come up despite all the times I've mocked the lack of evidence for the bible nonsense. And the kicker is your assertion that another reason behind your belief is that, according to you, Christ has provided me with the foundation for a full, meaningful, happy life" - Do you realize how disgustingly selfish that statement is DJ? Sam Harris says it pretty well "It is not only tiresome when otherwise intelligent people speak this way it is morally reprehensible. This kind of faith really is the perfection of narcissism. "God loves me, don't ya know. He cured me of my eczema. He makes me feel so good while singing in church. And just when we had given up hope, he found a banker that was willing to reduce my mother's mortgage." Given all that this god of yours does not accomplish in the lives of others, given the misery that is being imposed on some helpless child at this instant, this kind of faith is obscene. To think in this way is to fail to reason honestly, or to care sufficiently, in the suffering of other human beings." DJ - you haven't explained anything to me. Care to try again? As for my beliefs: I believe that evolution is true but am willing to change my mind should the evidence start to point a different way. I believe that the Big Band is probably true. I believe man made god. I believe we are all atheists regarding gods that were worshiped in the past and that I'm an atheist in regards to just one more god than you are. I believe it borders on child abuse to work to convince children that the judeo christian myths are true and that hell awaits sinners; that talking snakes and noah's ark are factual. I believe that morals are independent of religion. I believe that religious extremists are willing to blow up the world. I believe that this is our only life and when we die we simply cease to exist. I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in science..................And your statement "what has your belief system done to provide meaning in your life?" makes no sense. It's not the responsibility of reality to provide "meaning to my life" or a "belief system". I never said that I'm an atheist because it makes me happy, I'm an atheist because I value the truth and am not willing to lie to myself.

DeeJay

bluegill: Fair enough. Thank you for your response.

RE: "I believe that the Big Band is probably true" I like big band too. Especially Glenn Miller and Count Basie. I'm only kidding! I know it was a typo and I know what you meant.

I have enjoyed this exchange, even if we are way off topic. .

LazySenior

"The old saying is true: Christianity is more "caught" than taught."

You sure got that right. The fastest way to Christianity is getting "caught" and going to jail.....

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

I'm starting at the top. To many comments to keep up with.
bluegill some were in the bible it says all little children come to me.
And your correct! Parents shouldn't be telling children their are going to hell for making an error. That is boarder line mental child abuse. They should be teaching their children right from wrong.

CLG4
CLG4

bluegill are your morals causing more arguments with fellow bloggers again. I still say that the problem is you don't understand what you stand for. In your youth your parents probably forced you to go to church where you formed your morals. Now as a adult you think that was child abuse. The rub here is that you formed in your mind a set of morals that you think are what everyone else should subscribe to. Here's the rub bluegill everyone else formed a set of morals to. Now one day the world will end as you predict but it will end cause of some group of people wanting more land, wealth or material things, religion will not cause it, no war has ever been fought cause of religion. Their has always been a despot behind war.

Ishmael
Ishmael

"... no war has ever been fought cause of religion." - CLG4

Thirty Years' War
French Wars of Religion
Nigerian Civil War
Second Sudanese Civil War
Crusades
Lebanese Civil War
Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa
Jihad (dozens of examples)
Palestinian Israel conflict
Pakistan and India
Ethiopia - Somalia
Buddhist Uprising
Chinese conflict
Lebanese Civil War
The Schmalkaldic Wars


... shall I go on?

MickeeD
MickeeD

By all means. After all this has nothing to do with the topic concerning Pickneyville on lockdown

"Singling out bluegill when other posters are also going off topic shows an agenda."

Ishmael
Ishmael

"After all this has nothing to do with the topic concerning Pickneyville on lockdown" - MickeeD

Singling me out when other posters are also going off topic shows you have no interest in enforcing the rules; just an interest in using them.

MickeeD
MickeeD

Using the rules?

bluegill

@cl - " no war has ever been fought cause of religion." - boggles my mind that you can believe that statement. In fact just yesterday in pakistan a mob of muslims burned down a lot of christian's homes because they heard one of the christians had blasphemed against their god/prophet - http://news.yahoo.com/mob-pakistani-city-torches-christian-homes-110658171.html - while not a war it's certainly religiously motivated violence. Also - my parents were very mild episcopalians and I hated church so much that they eventually gave up having me go at all. My morals have nothing to do with religion. If you don't think that telling a young child that there is a supernatural being that watches everything they do, and reads their thoughts, and that he stands capable and eager to send them to be tortured forever if they do something he doesn't like, while there is no evidence to support that claim, is cruel then, in my opinion, you need to reevaluate what constitutes abuse in your eyes.

DeeJay

If there were no religion, mankind would find some other reason for us to fight one another. For instance, in Southern Illinois we have a war going on right now. The powers that be at SIU are engaged in a colossal battle. Religion has nothing to do with it (unless you include the religion of self-worship).

Most of us have some knowledge of churches having disagreements and dividing. Some say the issues are such things as what color the carpet will be, whether or not the choir will wear robes, or these days the biggie is what style of music will be used in worship. I assure you none of those things is the issue. The issue is WHO GETS TO SAY what color the carpet will be, etc, etc, etc.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

Greed and jealousy rules mankind. Both issues the bible speaks against.

bluegill

@DJ - "If there were no religion, mankind would find some other reason for us to fight one another." - First of all, how do you know? And second, that does not justify all the killing and wars that were clearly religiously based. As for "in Southern Illinois we have a war going on right now" - really DJ? A war? What's the body count so far? How many were killed in this was last week? And how many are dead and wounded because of the great War of the Carpet Color? A disagreement or petty carpet squabble is not really a "war" Dj - haha - sometimes you make me laugh

bluegill

@OldJoe - "Greed and jealousy rules mankind. Both issues the bible speaks against." - But in Exodus 34 it says "The Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" - yahweh himself is very jealous joe. Plus, he wants to be the only god, he wants all of us to himself - sounds a lot like greed to me. The bible may speak against them but god seems to have exempted himself from admonition.

DeeJay

"How do you know?" In addition to my study of the Bible, I have been alive long enough to know and understand human nature. "A war? What's the body count?" I would imagine a great many students and lower-mid level SIU employees would consider themselves a part of the "body-count." Whether it is a shooting war, a cold war, a political war, or a rhetorical war there are always victims. It could be a lost life, a permanent wound, or lost opportunities, or damage to reputation and career prospects-but war always has victims. And the root cause is always the question of "Who gets to say?"

DeeJay

The Abolitionist Movement and the Civil Rights Movement were religiously based. Although great violence accompanied those times, the movements' reason and result were steeped in a religious desire for justice and the right of every person to live a peaceful, dignified life.

When you present a one-sided argument you reveal your bias.

Ishmael
Ishmael

"The Abolitionist Movement and the Civil Rights Movement were religiously based." - DeeJay / tpfkae

Promoting religions role in ending slavery while leaving out it's role in promoting it, justifying it, and actively defending it through the millenia is incredibly bias and amazingly disingenuous.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Religion/slavery.htm


"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever." -- Exodus 21:2-6

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." -- Leviticus 25:44-45

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart." -- Ephesians 6:5-6.

"Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval." -- 1 Peter 2:18-29.

bluegill

@DJ - "The Abolitionist Movement and the Civil Rights Movement were religiously based." - The bible was used by the south as justification for slavery. The bible condones it - both the old and new testaments. The oppression of blacks and women is derived from the bible.

DeeJay

bluegill: Yes, some used the Bible to advocate for slavery and racial oppression. Your post does not address the issue I raised: The Abolitionist Movement and the Civil Rights Movement were religiously based. The leaders of both movements used the Bible in their efforts.

bluegill

@DJ - "The Abolitionist Movement and the Civil Rights Movement were religiously based." - Even if that's true: so what? It says nothing for the authenticity of your god. Abolitionists, mostly quakers, were hated, beaten, and killed by christians for their opposition to slavery. The same thing happened during the civil rights movement. The bible has been used to justify good as well as evil - again: so what? It doesn't make any of the bible true.

Desertrider2008

Every Prison in the Country is overcrowded. this is not a situation unique with Illinois. Prison Guards are paid very well... more than I make. It is their choice to work there. If the fire is too hot get out of the kitchen.

StraightTalk

Old Joe, I am usually right in your court. And, although I think your comment is a natural gut reaction, it is way off track. Most, not all, but most correctional workers are honorable well intended law enforcement workers, with the same responsibilities and training as street cops. So, I suppose you would not want street cops to turn their backs on crimes in your community, neither do the inmates who just want to do their time, or the relatives of those workers in prisons. Once a prison progresses through a gradual loss of control, everyone is in danger. Let me clarify that when prison populations get out of control it is normally because of weak management, liberal policies and budget constraints, usually resulting in risky situations for the prison employees who work within the walls. Again, I state, not all correctional workers are as honorable as we would want, and as the news media often reports, neither are all street cops. But, most, I repeat most, want to do their job of enforcement, whether on the street or in the joint, in an honorable, legal and effective manner. Now, I would totally agree with you if we locked the scum away in walled cities and let them torture each other for survival but we would soon want that control back when it bled over into our communities. Most public citizens do not want to know what goes on in prisons or have any respect for correctional workers, but they keep on doing their difficult jobs in spite of the lack of recognition or respect. Ever seen a movie where Correctional Officers are made to be heroes? No, but spend one day working in a prison and you will see that they are unsung. God bless what is left of America.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

Straight Talk. Did I say something against prison guards? And is there as many innocent people in prison as there is in the streets?
Having a dad that loved the prison, I guess? He was an inmate 7 times. I'm not totally ignorant about prison life. Give the guards more power to rehabilitate the inmates and there will be less people begging to get back in.

sgtstu

Old Joe - " let the inmates beat the hell out of each other until they are tired of fighting."
As a retired Correctional Officer of 25 years I tell ya that is a fine idea. Only problem with it is the guards by law are required to protect inmates from each other. Don't break them up and the guard can and would be sued. Ever think that they (the guards) might know what they are talking about ?

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

Personally I'm tired of ASFCME blaming over crowing and short prison staff for these fights. These people is in prison because they are a menace to society. What else should we expect from them? Maybe the guards should turn their head and let the inmates beat the hell out of each other until they are tired of fighting.

bluegill

@oldjoe - "the guards should turn their head and let the inmates beat the hell out of each other until they are tired of fighting." - Not all that christian of you joe.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

bluegill I have said time an time again, i'm not a christian. Just a believer in a higher power than man.

bluegill

@oldjoe - I'm truly sorry if you are not, at present, a christian. I got the impression, from past posts in which you quote the bible and use the bible as the reason you have taken some positions, that you believed in jesus and the whole christian story line. Perhaps your views on christianity and religion in general have evolved. It sounds like you have adopted a more "deist" attitude toward the mysteries of life and if that's the case I applaud your ability to change your beliefs based on you own intellectual progress. Welcome to the world of skeptics; you're in good company.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

bluegill, you know the bible much better than I do. Does that make you a christian? Like I said I'm just a believer in a higher power than man, and I like to think his name is Jesus. No I'm not evolving. Weather I get saved and baptized or not, I will always be comfortable being a believer. No man will ever change my mind. Same as no man will ever change your mind. We are what we are, and that is who we should be.

bluegill

@oldjoe - "I'm not evolving" - "We are what we are, and that is who we should be." - At what point of our lives do we say that? You had a drinking problem a while back according to you. If you had employed your "we are what we are" philosophy at that point in your life you would still be a drunk. But you changed; you evolved. I am willing to bet that you are more accepting and tolerant of minorities now than you were in your youth; but you changed, you evolved. We keep changing and evolving, if we're lucky and unlike DJ, our entire lives Joe so there's no need to draw a line in the sand and say: "these are my exact, unchangeable attitudes and beliefs" - when we do that we might as well just curl up and die.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

bluegill my hair has evolved from brown to gray, my waist from 32 to 36. But my heart will never change. That is who I am. I may learn how to respect other peoples opinions better, and mature more? But I will still own, my own heart.

When did I figure out that I had a drinking problem? When the bill collectors was knocking on my door. When I had beer money and no bill money. When I discovered alcohol was affecting the people that I would never hurt. Don't get me wrong I still like the idea of drinking. But there is a greater power stopping me. My love for my wife, she deserves better!
Me believing in a higher power than man, gives my heart the strength to keep trying to do the right thing. For someone else, if believing in Donald Duck gives them strength? I want to support them in believing in Donald Duck. Now you must admit, there is worse things in life to believe in. I am happy that you have the power to believe in yourself! Some people need more.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

bluegill I have a question for you. If a persons comfort zone was believing in Donald Duck. They thought believing in Donald Duck helped make them a better person. Why would you want to take their comfort zone away?
For many people. believing in the bible puts them in a comfort zone that helps make them a better person. In the coal mine we had a saying. What ever it takes to get the job done.

bluegill

@Joe - I don't strive to take away anyone's "comfort zone" but I feel justified in attacking religion because I believe it holds us back as a species. I think that science deniers, creationists, fundamentalists and young earthers are detrimental to the collective intelligence, competitiveness and success of our country in particular, and of our planet, ultimately. It's like, because of religion, the human race is running in mud. What if the next einstein never blooms because he's born to devout christians and fed myths as truth and convinced, because of religious indoctrination, that life is about end times battles between good and evil instead of about discovery, curiosity and self awareness? Religion causes young muslims to strap bombs onto themselves and kill themselves in a crowd of innocent people. They do it with the faith that in doing so they will bypass all prerequisites to admission to heaven and go straight to paradise complete with virgins. All religions seem to, at there fundamental cores, demand the killing of apostates and celebrate the end of times with joyous anticipation. I oppose religion for a myriad of reasons but the most urgent are that I don't want to live in a theocracy and I don't want fanatics to try to bring about Armageddon with some, all to accessible, WMDs.

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

bluegill as always you made some good points to think about. I need to study your comment some more before I make a come back.

Diogenes
Diogenes

I'm with Old Joe on this one. While I am convinced of the existence of a higher power and trust in that power by the grace of Christ, I can appreciate bluegill's feelings. It seems obvious to me that this is a subject that occupies his/her consciousness a great deal or it wouldn't come up so often. The actions of so many who profess to be believers have been a stumbling block to myself and many others. I share some of the distaste for fundamentalism, young earth creationism, and the self righteous meanness of some towards people whose beliefs are different than theirs. Keep talking bluegill, we may not have all the answers here, but honest discussion never hurt anyone.

bluegill

@dio - Thanks for your comment. The problem I have with moderates is only that they give cover and credibility to the fundamentalists, who, in my opinion, are, ironically, the only ones practicing the true, unvarnished word of their gods. Everything else is just watered down, socially acceptable, versions of what the holy books actually say. What people believe, inside of their own heads, that doesn't affect others, is fine with me. I think, however, that religious indoctrination is stepping on the rights of the children enduring the indoctrination. Kids look up to and depend on their parents in such an intense way when they are young that they are not capable of thinking rationally and objectively about what they're being told. They believe that hell is real because their parents tell them so, not because it makes logical sense to them and actual proof exists. Keep the extremists out of public life and leave the kids alone; if religion has merit, the kids will find it through their own investigations when they are old enough to think for themselves. Beyond those things, I don't care how much singing, praying and bake saleing the religious folks do.

DeeJay

bluegill: (1) Who are "extremists?" By that term do you mean fundamentalist believers? (2) In your worldview ("Keep the extremists out of public life and leave the kids alone.") , are moderate believers allowed to religiously educate their children and participate in public life, or are all believers forbidden to do those things? (3) How do you propose that your rules be enforced? (4) Does "leaving the kids alone" include indoctrination in the skeptic/atheist worldview as well as the religious worldview? (5) If religious people are not permitted to participate in public life, are they exempt from taxation?

OLD JOE
OLD JOE

bluegill your correct. Children has parents to look up to. To make them feel secure. To answer their questions. To draw strength from.

Who does parents have to draw strength from? Who can you really feel comfortable turning to these days? Parents feel lost at times to. Many times parents feel they have no place else to turn to but the man in the sky. (been there)
Should parents leave their children home alone when they go find their comfort zone at church? And who are you to tell parents how to raise their children? Or who am I to tell you how to raise your children?
At times it's hard to turn to other family members for support. Other family members can be the most critical people of all.

Personally I feel what ever works for each and every person. I'm sorry, but not everyone has your strength to go threw life alone, knowing all the answers.

I don't believe man was created equal. Example. I know I'm physically stronger than most people. And mentally weaker than many. Just trying to keep up with you good people on these threads tell me that.

Many times parents needs a hero to. No man should have to feel alone. And for some people believing in a higher power than man, given them that comfort zone of never feeling alone.
I admit, you give very good reasons why people shouldn't believe in the spiritual world! But your reasons don't work for everyone. That is why we should respect everyone's individual rights. I believe some were in the American constitution will say that to. The american constitution made us the greatest diverse nation on earth.

bluegill

@oldjoe - You present lots of good questions, most of which I don't have good answers to. The church is a source of comfort and solace to millions of people. I simply look for the truth and find it impossible to force my mind to believe all that bible stuff. As for the kids; we can't tell people how to raise their kids but we have an obligation, as a society, to prevent child abuse. I consider childhood religious indoctrination to border on abuse. For instance if a parent tells their 4yr old child that if they steal some candy from the store then they will bury the child underground and set them on fire, and the child believes this to be true, then that child is being abused and mistreated. But, somehow, it's ok to tell that child that if they steal candy from the store they will go to a place down below called hell where god will burn them over and over again? I don't agree. I think both instances are abusive to the child.

bluegill

@DJ - Communicating with you is a waste of my time - sorry, but since this is the only life I'm sure of ever having, I won't waste it arguing with somebody who's mind is so completely closed as yours obviously is. You are, sadly DJ, a lost cause; another casualty of religious fantasy.

DeeJay

bluegill: They are fair questions which come directly from your post which presents your worldview. I am not the only one who has raised them.

Thankfully, the First Amendment protects us from your worldview.

Regarding your comment about me and evolving, you couldn't be more wrong.

Regarding your belief that religion holds back human progress, I attended three fine schools all founded in the Christian tradition. Off the top of my head, I can think of two professors at one of those schools who earned the Nobel Prize in their discipline. Baylor University has one of the finest medical schools in the world. If I took the time to do a little research, I could fill pages with the names and achievements of Christian/Jewish/Muslim professionals. "...science deniers, creationists, fundamentalists and young earthers..." are stereotypes which do not present an accurate picture of believers. These viewpoints represent a minority among Christians, although watching religious television could lead you to believe otherwise. I too am frustrated by the fundamentalist extremes of my faith, but you have a biased view of religion. Perhaps you should consider your own closed-mindedness.

Ishmael
Ishmael

DeeJay / , stop with the game of asking questions for the questions sake. You have no interest in the answers. Your questions are loaded and based on false premises; akin to "are you still beating your wife?". It's juvenile and only shows you're desperate. If you can't hang with the topic on a rational, intelligent level give it up.

bluegill

@DJ - "bluegill: They are fair questions which come directly from your post which presents your worldview. I am not the only one who has raised them." - yes - they are fair questions and if somebody reasonable asks them I'll take time to answer them. You, however, have no interest in the truth, and, as a result, are a waste of my time.

DeeJay

bluegill: You can rest assured I will keep asking them.

Ishmael
Ishmael

"bluegill: You can rest assured I will keep asking them." - DeeJay / tpfkae

Above, OLD JOE stated, "Parents shouldn't be telling children their are going to hell for making an error. That is boarder line mental child abuse." That is exactly the same statement bluegill made and which you have been using as the basis for badgering him with your "questions." Yet, you're not doing the same to OLD JOE for saying the same thing.

Like I said earlier, you're playing the game of asking questions for the questions sake. You're desperate and can't stay with the conversation on an intelligent level so you're resorting to word games.

DeeJay

bluegill: Whatever the subject, you seem to always want to turn it to religion. Please stay on topic.

Ishmael
Ishmael

"Please stay on topic. " - DeeJay /

Singling out bluegill when other posters are also going off topic shows an agenda. You have no interest in seeing the posting rules being followed; you're trying to use them.

bluegill

@DJ - "bluegill: Whatever the subject, you seem to always want to turn it to religion. Please stay on topic." - That was the entirety of your comment. How was chastising me for straying off topic "on topic"? Haven't you just committed the same crime you accuse me of? Let me walk you through it: OldJoe said "the guards should turn their head and let the inmates beat the hell out of each other until they are tired of fighting." To me, that seemed like an immoral and cruel thing to do for numerous reasons. Since, as you no doubt believe, morals for a christian person are derived from the bible, and because Joe has, in the past, identified as a believer in jesus, I pointed out to him that his remark regarding the inmates was unchristian. See how that works DJ? Conversations are fluid things and branch out at times, sometimes the branches start new conversations and sometimes they simply die out; not unlike the way evolution works. I realize that your knee jerk reaction is to try to scold and admonish me for my lack of respect for you, but why not think a moment before doing it next time? You may save yourself some embarrassment in the future.

Welcome to the discussion.

Keep it Clean. Please avoid obscene, vulgar, lewd, racist or sexually-oriented language.
PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK.
Don't Threaten. Threats of harming another person will not be tolerated.
Be Truthful. Don't knowingly lie about anyone or anything.
Be Nice. No racism, sexism or any sort of -ism that is degrading to another person.
Be Proactive. Use the 'Report' link on each comment to let us know of abusive posts.
Share with Us. We'd love to hear eyewitness accounts, the history behind an article.